检验标识！
rml 发表于 2013-7-16 08:07
呵呵。亲爱的傻蛋，老不老不能仅从外表看。
你引《辞海》“标识，即‘标志’”。其实应为“标识，即标志 ...
胡搅蛮缠、胡说八道是你这白痴惯用的伎俩。
1、“rml=脑残白痴 或 你rml就是脑残白痴”是合乎逻辑的，但“脑残白痴＝rml 或 脑残白痴就是rml”是不合乎逻辑的，也就是说，说到脑残白痴，不一定全指向你rml。这点你没有异议吧？
2、同理，“标识→用以标示便于识别”是是合乎逻辑的，但“用以标示便于识别”不一定全部指向“标识”。这点你应该同意，否则，你只能认可“说到脑残白痴，一定全指向你rml”这样的说法。
3、对7.5.3来说，针对“组织应在产品实现的全过程中，针对监视和测量要求识别产品的状态”要求，企业可以采用标识的方法来实现标准的上述控制要求，因为标识可以用以标示便于识别；但审核员不能反过来说，组织应在产品实现的全过程中，针对监视和测量要求对产品的状态进行标识，因为“用以标示便于识别”不一定全部指向“标识”这一种方式。
4、本题是讨论识别与标识异同的帖子，也就是说标准中提到的“识别”要求能否完全用“标识”一词来等同替代。你胡扯标识与标志，想转移话题目标，胡搅蛮缠、胡说八道是你这白痴惯用的伎俩，老子早就不吃你这一套了。
rml 发表于 2013-7-16 15:45
傻逼，这些事实与你的言论证明你是这论坛唯一的脑残白痴。
1、有“一剑封喉=脑残白痴”，则必有“脑残白 ...
“标识→用以标示便于识别”既不符合定义这种逻辑方法，也不符合语法。
上面的白底黑字是你这个傻逼自己写的，没人强迫你吧？
你再睁大你那混浊的狗眼，看看你在本帖88楼所贴的内容：【標識】→用以標示，便於識別。（对应简体就是：【标识】用以标示，便于识别。）
脑残啊脑残，再次自己打自己的臭嘴！说你是纯正脑残白痴，冤枉你吗？
rml 发表于 2013-7-17 00:24
白痴，你狗眼瞎了看不到“记号，符号”蛮？
傻逼，自己看不懂就请人解释一下嘛。
自己想把“标识”和“ ...
有勇气自残，还是难能可贵、值得鼓励的。脑残白痴！
两位大侠，《2008版质量管理体系国家标准理解与实施》都已经出来四年多了，里面对与7.5.3的解释已经非常清楚了，两位还没有达成统一共识吗？
古汉语常用字字典
识
shí
①<动>知道；懂得。《谋攻》：“～众寡之用者胜。”《石钟山记》：“汝～之乎？”
②<动>认识。《回乡偶书》：“儿童相见不相～。”
③<动>识别；辨认。《采草药》：“八月苗未枯，采掇者易辨～耳。”④<名>知识；见识。张衡《东京赋》：“鄙夫寡～。”
zhì
①<动>通“志”。记；记住。《论语》：“默而～之。”
②<名>通“帜”。标记；记号。《记王忠肃公翱事》：“公拆袄，出珠授之，封～宛然。”
rml 发表于 2013-7-17 08:20
可怜。
但凡有那么一丁点要脸皮的，弄到这种哑口无言地步，干脆自己屙泡尿溺死算了。
居然还有勇气出来 ...
死猪不怕开水烫，你就是那个宁死也不怕烫的活死猪。呵呵～～
blueboat 发表于 2013-7-17 12:47
两位大侠，《2008版质量管理体系国家标准理解与实施》都已经出来四年多了，里面对与7.5.3的解释已经非常清 ...
你觉得“组织应在产品实现的全过程中，针对监视和测量要求对产品的状态进行标识”这样的说法对吗？
一剑封喉 发表于 2013-7-17 13:02
你觉得“组织应在产品实现的全过程中，针对监视和测量要求对产品的状态进行标识”这样的说法对吗？
标准的的要求是进行“识别”。当然，标准有三条要求，前两条分别要求识别产品和识别产品的状态，第三条为可追溯性，而7.5.3的条款名为“标识和可追溯性”，暗含了需要对产品和产品状态需要进行标识的要求。
和rml老师和无锡安心两位老师的看法相左，标识的读法我认为是就是biaoshi，而不是biaozhi，区别是前者是动词，包含通过做标志等方式以标示识别的意思，而不是紧紧只是一个名词的标志（也有可能是我没有认真看完两位老师的帖子而自己产生的歧义）。
只是标识的方法，《理解与实施》已经说得很清楚了，编号、条形码、记录、标记、标签、印章、区域等等只要能起到识别作用的就都可以。
这是我个人的的粗浅理解:)封喉老师勿拍砖啊。
blueboat 发表于 2013-7-17 14:28
标准的的要求是进行“识别”。当然，标准有三条要求，前两条分别要求识别产品和识别产品的状态，第三条为 ...
1、不可否认，《2008版质量管理体系国家标准 理解与实施》一书为国内审核员准确理解和把握标准要求提供了很好的帮助，在国内不失为一本相对权威的教材。但，正如ISO9001标准以及对应的国标也会出错一样，该书并不是ISO/TC176的官方正式文件，与其他质量管理类书籍一样也会出错，因此，该书在其前言的最后结束语特别说明：我们热忱地欢迎广大读者对本书提出宝贵的意见和建议。
2、该书关于7.5.3条款要求，在其【理解与实施要点】中提出了“产品的标识、监视和测量状态的标识、产品的可追溯性标识”这三类标识的提法。仅就这种表述本身而言就并不严谨，如果一定要用“标识”一词来概括7.5.3条款的三段要求的话，相对严谨的说法应该是：产品的标识、产品的监视和测量状态的标识、产品的唯一性标识。
3、正如国内质量管理界长期对9001标准7.2.2有“合同评审”错误提法、对7.5.2有“特殊过程的确认”错误提法一样，该书7.5.3一段【理解与实施要点】的编者对三类标识的提法本身就存在问题。7.5.3的第一段要求其实是“使用适宜的方法识别产品”，编者把这个要求误读为对产品进行标识。我多次强调过，对产品进行标识可以达到识别产品的目的，但识别产品并非只有对产品进行标识这一种方法可以实现，如不少企业采用对不同产品分区定置的办法来达到识别产品和识别产品的监视和测量状态，同样是符合标准要求的，审核员不应也不能把自己的私货（指对标准要求的曲解误读）声称为标准要求作为审核准则强加给被审核方。
4、7.5.3的第二段其实是对“产品的监视和测量状态进行识别”的控制要求，该书编者再次把这种识别状态的要求误读为“对产品的监视和测量状态进行标识”。之所以说其是误读标准，理由同上。
5、你说“标识的方法，《理解与实施》已经说得很清楚了，编号、条形码、记录、标记、标签、印章、区域等等”，其实你也误读或漏读了该书的这部分内容。不信，你自己仔细看看，人家讲的是“识别和标识的方法”，你却误写为“标识的方法”。
6、关于“标识”一词在国标7.5.3中的词性，你的理解也是有问题的。国标7.5.3正文中“标识”一词仅在最后一段出现了一次，“在有可追溯性要求的场合，组织应控制产品的唯一性标识，并保持记录”，这里“标识”的词性为名词，按照现代汉语的习惯，应该读作biaoshi，而不是biaozhi（标识既可以用作动词，如“对……进行标识”，也可以用作名词，如身份标识）。
7、如果你研读ISO9001标准英文原版，可以知道7.5.3条款第一段和第二段均为“shall identify”，此处identify均作为及物动词使用，词义为“vt. 识别”，并无“对……进行标识”的意思；只有第三段为名词“identification”，做‘标识’解。
8、至于你说：7.5.3的条款名为“标识和可追溯性”，暗含了需要对产品和产品状态需要进行标识的要求。这个只是你个人对9001标准条款名的一种解释，靠条款名来解释标准要求往往不准确，如7.4.2的条款名为“采购信息”，如果按照条款名望文生义来理解的话，很可能仅理解为“对拟采购产品的信息”的要求，其实该条款还包括了适用时对供方的要求（如对供方程序、过程和设备的批准要求，对供方人员资格的要求，对供方质量管理体系的要求等）。
一剑封喉 发表于 2013-7-17 21:43
1、不可否认，《2008版质量管理体系国家标准 理解与实施》一书为国内审核员准确理解和把握标准要求提供了 ...
谢谢老师的精彩讲解。
其实从个人角度，对标识的词性、读法等不必深究，我觉得对标准的条款理解只要明白两点就可以了：
1. 只有状态标识是必须的；
2. 识别和标识的方法有：编号、条形码、记录、标记、标签、印章、区域等，而不是提到标识就必须有标签类的东东，区域、记录、颜色、编号等也都能起到识别的目的。
标准的主要思想把握住就可以了。
楼上的饭桶，除了吃饭和屙屎，就会胡说八道，整个一个脑残白痴！老子对其发表的一堆废话根本不屑一顾。
究竟是7.4.2“条款还包括了适用时对供方的要求”，还是7.4.2中的“对拟采购产品的信息”还包括了适用时对供方的要求？
这种问题，也只有脑残白痴才能问的出来了，呵呵～～
rml 发表于 2013-7-18 10:46
这种问题肯定不是问你这种白痴的。
大爷在展示你的高智商呢——高到了连到那是“拟采购产品信息”（这是复 ...
哦，原来你这白痴是自言自语、自问自答。正脑残啊……呵呵
来自国外质量手册，与各位分享：
IDENTIFICATION AND TRACEABILITY (7.5.3)
Identifying Product (7.5.3.1)
The standard requires the organization to identify the product by suitable means
throughout product realization where appropriate.
What Does this Mean?
The requirements for product identification are intended to enable products and services
with one set of characteristics to be distinguishable from products or services with
another set of characteristics.
The option of applying this requirement ‘where appropriate’ implies that there are
situations where product identity is unnecessary. There are of course situations where
attaching an identity to a product would be impractical such as for liquids or items too
small but the product nevertheless has an identity that is conveyed through the pack-
aging and associated information. In the food industry, the biscuits on the conveyor
might not carry an identity but the box into which they are packed does as does the
instruction that ordered the biscuits to be produced. Thus identifying a product by
suitable means might require the product to be labelled, or might require the container to
be labelled. Services are somewhat different. Many are not identified other than by the
nature of what the organization does by generic categories such as investment, mort-
gage, financial planning services of banks. Where there are differences for instance in
interest rates, the ‘products’ are given different names such as Instant Access Account,
90 Day account and so on.
Why is this Necessary?
This requirement responds to the Process Approach Principle.
Product identity is vital in many situations to prevent inadvertent mixing, to enable
re-ordering, to match products with documents that describe them and to do that basic of
all human activities – to communicate.Without codes, numbers, labels, names and other
forms of identification we cannot adequately describe the product or service to anyone
else or be certain we are looking at the right product. The product must be identified in
one way or another otherwise it cannot be matched to its specification.
How is this Demonstrated?
Separate product identity is necessary where it is not inherently obvious. If products are
so dissimilar that inadvertent mixing would be unlikely to occur, a means of physically
identifying the products is probably unnecessary. ‘Inherently obvious’ in this context
means that the physical differences are large enough to be visible to the untrained eye.
Functional differences, therefore, no matter how significant as well as slight differences
in physical characteristics such as colour, size, weight and appearance would constitute
an appropriate situation for documented identification procedures.
Identifying product should start at the design stage when the product is conceived. The
design should be given a unique identity, a name or a number and that should be used on all
related information.When the product emerges into production, the product should carry
the same number or name but in addition it should carry a serial number or other iden-
tification to enable product features to be recorded against specific products. If verification
is on a go or no go basis, product does not need to be serialized. If measurements are
recorded some means has to be found of identifying the measurements with the product
measured. Serial numbers, batch numbers and date codes are suitablemeans for achieving
this. This identity should be carried on all records related to the product.
Apart from the name or number given to a product you need to identify the version
and the modification state so that you can relate the issues of the drawing and specifi-
cations to the product they represent. Products should either carry a label or markings
with this type of information in an accessible position or bear a unique code number that
is traceable to such information.
You may not possess any documents that describe purchased product. The only
identity may be marked on the product itself or its container. Where there are no
markings, information from the supplier’s invoice or other such documents should be
transferred to a label and attached to the product or the container. Information needs to
be traceable to the products it represents.
The method of identification depends on the type, size, quantity or fragility of the
product. You can mark the product directly (provided the surface is not visible to the end
user unless of course identity is part of the brand name) tie a label to it or the container in
537 Chapter j 27 Production and Service Provisionwhich it is placed. You can also use records remote from the product providing they bear
a unique identity that is traceable to the product.
Marking products has its limitations because it may damage the product, be removed
or deteriorate during subsequent processing. If applied directly to the product, the
location and nature of identification should be specified in the product drawings or
referenced process specifications. If applied to labels which are permanently secured to
the product, the identification needs to be visible when the product is installed so as to
facilitate checks without its removal. If the identity is built into the forging or casting, it
is important that it is legible after machining operations. One situation which can be
particularly irritating to customers is placing identification data on the back of equip-
ment and then expecting the customer to state this identity when dealing with a service
call thus causing delay while the customer dives under the desk to locate the serial
number and drops the telephone in the panic!
Verification Status (7.5.3)
The standard requires the organization to identify the status of the product with respect
to measurement and monitoring requirements throughout product realization.
What Does this Mean?
Product status with respect to monitoring and measurement means an indication as to
whether the product conforms or does not conform to specified requirements. Thus
identifying product status enables conforming product to be distinguishable from
nonconforming product.
Why is this Necessary?
This requirement responds to the Factual Approach Principle.
Measurement does not change a product but does change our knowledge of it.
Therefore it is necessary to identify which products conform and which do not so that
inadvertent mixing, processing or delivery is prevented.
How is this Demonstrated?
The most common method of denoting product status is to attach labels either to the
product or to containers holding the product. Green labels for acceptable good and Red
labels for reject goods. Labels should remain affixed until the product is either packed or
installed. Labels should be attached in a way that prevents their detachment during
handling. If labels need to be removed during further processing, the details should be
transferred to inspection records so that at a later date the status of the components in an
assembly can be checked through the records. At dispatch, product status should be
visible. Any product without status identification should be quarantined until re-verified
and found conforming. Once a product has passed through the product realization
process and is in use, it requires no product status identity unless it is returned to the
production process for repair or other action.
It should be possible when walking through a machine shop for example, to identify
which products are awaiting verification, which have been verified and found
538 PART j 6 Complying with ISO 9001 Section 7 Requirementsconforming and which have been rejected. If by chance, some product was to become
separated from its parent batch, it should still be possible to return the product to the
location from whence it came. A machine shop is where this type of identification is
essential – it is where mix-ups can occur. In other places, where mix-ups are unlikely,
verification status identification does not need to be so explicit.
Identifying product status is not just a matter of tying a label on a product. The status
should be denoted by an authorized signature, stamp, mark or other identity which is
applied by the person making the accept or reject decision and which is secure from
misuse. Signatures are acceptable as a means of denoting verification status on paper
records but are not suitable for computerized records. Secure passwords and ‘write only’
protection has to be provided to specific individuals. Signatures in a workshop envi-
ronment are susceptible to deterioration and illegibility that is why numbered inspection
stamps with unique markings evolved. The ink used has to survive the environment and
if the labels are to be attached to the product for life, it is more usual to apply an imprint
stamp on soft metal or bar code.
Small and fragile products should be held in containers and the container sealed and
marked with the product status. Large products should either carry a label or have
a related inspection record.
In some situations the location of a product can constitute adequate identification of
product status. However, these locations need to be designated as Awaiting Inspection,
Accepted Product or Reject Product or other such labels as appropriate to avoid
the inadvertent placement of items in the wrong location. The location of product in the
normal production flow is not a suitable designation unless an automated transfer route
is provided.
When a service is out of service, tell your customers. Services that rely on products
should carry a label or a notice when accessed. A bank cash machine is one example
where a notice is displayed when the machine is out of service. In some cases customers
may need to be informed by letter or telephone.
With software the verification status can be denoted in the software as a comment or
on records testifying its conformance with requirements.
With documentation you can either denote verification status by an approval signa-
ture on the document or by a reference number, date and issue status that is traceable to
records containing the approval signatures.
If you use stamps, you will need a register to allocate stamps to particular individuals
and to indicate which stamps have been withdrawn.When a person hands in his stamp it
is good practice to avoid using the same number for 12 months or so to prevent mistaken
identity in any subsequent investigations.
Traceability
Where traceability is a requirement the standard requires the organization to control the
unique identification of the product and maintain records.
What Does this Mean?
Traceability is a process characteristic. It provides the ability to trace something through
a process to a point along its course either forwards or backwards through the process
539 Chapter j 27 Production and Service Provisionand determine as necessary, its origin, its history and the conditions to which it was
subjected. Traceability may be a requirement of the customer, legislation or statutes or
simply a requirement of the organization in order to conduct investigations when events
do not proceed as planned.
Why is this Necessary?
This requirement responds to the Factual Approach Principle.
One needs traceability to find the root cause of problems. If records cannot be found
which detail what happened to a product then nothing can be done to prevent its
recurrence. Although the standard only requires traceability when required by contract
or law, it is key to enabling corrective action.
In situations of safety or national security it is necessary to be able to locate all
products of a batch in which a defective product has been found so as to eliminate them
before there is a disaster. It is also very important in the aerospace, automobile, medical
devices and food and drugs industries – in fact, any industry where human life may be at
risk due to a defective product being in circulation.
Traceability is also important to control processes. You may need to know which
products have been through which processes and on what date if a problem is found
sometime later. The same is true of test and measuring equipment. If on being calibrated
a piece of test equipment is found to be out of calibration then it is important to track
down all the equipment which has been validated using that piece of measuring
equipment. This in fact is a requirement of ISO 9001 Clause 7.6 but no requirement for
traceability is specified.
How is this Demonstrated?
Providing traceability can be an onerous task. Some applications require products to
be traced back to the original ingot from which they were produced. Traceability is
achieved by coding items and their records such that you can trace an item back to
the records at any time in its life. The chain can be easily lost if an item goes
outside your control. For example, if you provide an item on loan to a development
organization for investigation and it is returned sometime later, without a certified
record of what was done to it, you have no confidence that the item is in fact the
same one, unless it has some distinguishing features. The inspection history may
also be invalidated because the operations conducted on the item were not certified.
Traceability is only helpful when the chain remains unbroken. It can also be costly
to maintain. The system of traceability that you maintain should be carefully
thought out so that it is economic. There is little point in maintaining an elaborate
traceability system for the once in a lifetime event when you need it, unless your
very survival or society’s survival depends on it. However, if there is a field failure,
in order to prevent recurrence you will need to trace the component back through
the supply chain to establish which operation on which component was not per-
formed correctly simply to rule out any suggestion that other products might be
affected.
The conventions you use to identify product and batches need to be specified in the
product specifications and the stage at which product is marked specified in the relevant
procedures or plans. Often such markings are automatically applied during processing,
540 PART j 6 Complying with ISO 9001 Section 7 Requirementsas is the case with printed circuits, mouldings, ceramics, castings, products etc. Process
setting up procedures should specify how the marking equipment or tools are to be
set up.
If you do release a batch of product prior to verification being performed and one out
of the batch is subsequently found to be nonconforming, you will need to retrieve all
others from the same batch. This may not be as simple as it seems. In order to retrieve
a component which has subsequently been assembled into a printed circuit board, which
has itself been fitted into a unit along with several other assemblies, not only would you
need a good traceability system but also one that is constantly in operation.
It would be considered prudent to prohibit the premature release of product if you did
not have an adequate traceability system in place. If nonconformity will be detected by
the end product tests, allowing production to commence without the receipt tests being
available may be a risk worth taking. However, if you lose the means of determining
conformity by premature release, don’t release the product until you have verified it as
acceptable.
blueboat 发表于 2013-7-18 13:01
来自国外质量手册，与各位分享：
IDENTIFICATION AND TRACEABILITY (7.5.3)
ISO 9000 Quality Systems Handbook（2009第六版）by David Hoyle ？
一剑封喉 发表于 2013-7-18 13:13
ISO 9000 Quality Systems Handbook（2009第六版）by David Hoyle ？
是的。可以作为有价值的参考资料吗？
blueboat 发表于 2013-7-18 13:31
是的。可以作为有价值的参考资料吗？
当然有参考价值，但同样的该书也不是ISO/TC176的官方正式文件，其中的观点不能作为审核准则使用。即使是这样，David Hoyle在书中对7.5.3的第二段解释也是使用的“identifying product status 识别产品的状态”，而不是说“have product status identification 具有产品状态标识”。
Verification Status (7.5.3)
The standard requires the organization to identify the status of the product with respect to measurement and monitoring requirements throughout product realization.
What Does this Mean?
Product status with respect to monitoring and measurement means an indication as to whether the product conforms or does not conform to specified requirements. Thus identifying product status enables conforming product to be distinguishable from nonconforming product.
一剑封喉 发表于 2013-7-18 15:42
当然有参考价值，但同样的该书也不是ISO/TC176的官方正式文件，其中的观点不能作为审核准则使用。即使是 ...
那ISO/TC176是否有类似《理解与实施》类的正式标准说明性文件呢？
blueboat 发表于 2013-7-18 16:15
那ISO/TC176是否有类似《理解与实施》类的正式标准说明性文件呢？
有，如《ISO 9001:2008 常见问题解答》、《ISO 9001:2008 子条款 1.2“应用”指南》等就是 ISO/TC176/SC2 发布的指南性文件。但尚未见到有对7.5.3条款的专门解释。
一剑封喉 发表于 2013-7-18 16:22
有，如《ISO 9001:2008 常见问题解答》、《ISO 9001:2008 子条款 1.2“应用”指南》等就是 ISO/TC176/SC2 ...
也许是他们认为7.5.3根本不会有争议吧~~
blueboat 发表于 2013-7-18 16:52
也许是他们认为7.5.3根本不会有争议吧~~
这个应该问ISO/TC176了……最新的ISO 9001CD版对这部分要求内容似乎基本没有变化。
849 8.6.2 Identification and traceability
850
851 Where appropriate, the organization shall identify process outputs by suitable means.
852
853 Theorganizationshall identify thestatusofprocessoutputswithrespecttomonitoring
854andmeasurement requirements throughout realization of goods and services.
855
856 Wheretraceabilityisarequirement,theorganizationshallcontroltheuniqueidentification
857 ofthe process outputs, and maintain it as documented information.